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 Moderated by: Ketana, CheshireKat, aeonflux  
Poll
Who was your favorite Hero on Lexx?
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
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Angel
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Take the poll!

Ketana
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Okay I did..and voted for Lyekka..cause the poor little thing was squashed..awww and because she loved in her own way the Stanley man.. 

Last edited on Tue Nov 7th, 2006 03:52 pm by Ketana

aeonflux
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I had to vote for Kai, but Xev is a close second.

Last edited on Tue Nov 7th, 2006 06:16 pm by aeonflux

Wayward Kitty
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I was forced to vote Kai... its a twisted loyalty thing ~_^ It was a tough question so I just went on down my usual route... the one which leads to the dead man

Aenea
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Ok...normally Kai......but hey.....without Squish the prophecy wouldn´t have been fulfilled....or?

 

It was in fact Squish who killed the last insect..........!

So he´s the hero *lol*

 

Otherwise I would count for Kai! Sure....

Angel
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Aenea wrote: Ok...normally Kai......but hey.....without Squish the prophecy wouldn´t have been fulfilled....or?

 

It was in fact Squish who killed the last insect..........!

So he´s the hero *lol*

 

Otherwise I would count for Kai! Sure....

I voted for Kai too, but technically the insect still lived on in Kai and was transferred to the bug larvae in Mantrid.  Then Mantrid received the insect essence along with his transferral into that ship, so he was still technically part of the insect essence and he wasn't destroyed until Xev smooshed him with her boot.  So was Xev really the final saviour of getting rid of the absolute last bit of insect essence?

Dragonflygurl
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This hard one for me, as there are quite a few hero's in the list, but I'd have to go for baby Squish.  If Squish had not eatten the gaint brain in Gigashadow, Zev and Stanley would of had it and as Kai was already dead it would not of made any difference to him.

Shenandora
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Hm, Prince isn't listed here. So, I would go for Xev...

Angel
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Shenandora wrote: Hm, Prince isn't listed here. So, I would go for Xev...

That's because Prince was the baddie, not the hero. :P

jerhume
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For me, it has got to be Kai, because he was core to the story of Lexx, sacrificing himself at the beginning & end of the story (& lots of hero stuff in between);
because he wanted to go beyond and to make a final stand, reviving the heroic spirit of the Brunnen G;
because he lost everything - his life, identity, love, sexualitiy, emotional self, race, planet - and then still tried to do the right thing,
according to his perception;
because he tried to redeem himself by becoming light, after being forced to be darkness
because he found a good way to die - twice

Re the Divine Order - I see Kai as destroying it; he killed His Shadow's body & later, the brain, which contained His Shadow's consciousness & the Insect Essence. This led to the fall of the Order & the Cleansing. He took some of it away unwittingly, true, but by the time he came back through the fractal core, the place was a shambles & not functioning. So I see the prophecy as being fulfilled by the last of the Brunnen G.

The Time Prophet didn't seem to foresee the Gigashadow or Mantrid  - & whilst they were Insect, they weren't the Divine Order, although they would undoubtedly have re established a form of the Order had they survived. Or would they, without any humans? (that being their goal)
Anyhoo, even here, Kai created the opportunities for Squish & Xev to deliver the final coup de grace.

Enough rambling...... it's Kai
. :D 

Ketana
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take the pole? k..but now what? sheesh..coulda given me a fur coat..that I woulda taken gladly...but a pole? gadss..

 

anyhoooo enough with the sillyness *is that the right spelling?* I voted for Thodin! 'Cause well he was the original hero..without him there woulda been no Lexx! He started the whole thing!! GO THODIN..and he was a great dresser! 

CheshireKat
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Thodin is the ultimate unavailable hero. He's a manly man that any woman would kill to be with *and I suspect a few did* but he wat totally dedicated to the 'cause':dude:

Hypatia
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Lyekka - mainly from S2.

:)

Mozenrath
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My vote is for Xev, Xev and only Xev :D

anaria
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It wasn't really hard to anticipate that result

790
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I like all the main characters but have voted for Zev .

Doctor X
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I still love Thodin for the way Barry Bostwick played it up chewing scenery--"You are slaves! SLAVES!" Perfect send-up!

--J.D.

mayaXXX
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Barry Bostwick is the only previous cast member from the movies that I haven't heard talk about Lexx. I wonder what his opnion was, and what he'd do if I showed up with a copy of IWHS for him to sign....

 

:badger:

Doctor X
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Well, considering he does not mind having people on the streets scream "ASSHOLE" at him and "Brad" after all of these years, I think he would not mind. His involvement certainly did not hurt him career-wise. He looked like he was having fun with it.

You wonder about these things though. What if your favorite actor/actress hates that movie you love holding a deep resentment bordering on the homicidal?

--J.D.

geeteeage
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Mana: 
No Prince? are you kiddin me

sassey209ultoria
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Ah, I voted for Stanley. I like all the characters, but, well, he's Stanley! Sort of smarmy and lecherous at times, but in the end, he does the right thing.

I'm biased, of course ;-)

Abby1964
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It's a no brainer, Kai.  He really get's nothing out of being the "savior" all the time he simply does it because he has nothing better to do.  He's not looking for glory or adoration it's just what he does.

But mostly because after thousands of years saving Stan and Xev from all of their stupid choices he never once thought "Damn the universe would be better off without these two!" 

Even though Xev and Stan "saved" him a few times he was dead. So it really made no difference to him, he would have been just as happy decomposing on top of a compost heap. 

Last edited on Wed Apr 14th, 2010 05:31 pm by Abby1964

Be_You_
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Mana: 
I'd say the most heroic character in Lexx was Zev - though I'm not sure it is correct to distinguish her from Xev.

Her act of throwing herself into the device being used to destroy Kai was just slightly more heroic and selfless than Thodin's final battle with the divine assassin, because though Thodin seemingly didn't believe he was going to survive a fight with Kai based on facility with which he was able to transfer the key to his lieutenant, he did have the tricky-eye invisibility bomb at his disposal and he did almost win in the end; Zev could not have had any expectation to survive.

Sorry girls: Kai was a hero, but is highly overrated in this regard. When he gave his life up in the forlorn hope attack on the Divine Shadow, he otherwise faced certain death had he remained on Brunnis-2. Subsequent to that death until his return to the realm of the living in the final episode, he had nothing to lose. And though he gave up his life a second time in the destruction of the monster that was destroying the earth, he similarly would have had no future with that thing on the loose had he somehow cut the Higgs-Boson particle experiment free from his moth and managed to fly out of the solar system in time to make an escape.


Robert Heinlein once described the ultimate hero as someone who does something dangerous and selfless for someone he doesn't even know; like the Frenchman in Jean Renoir's "Boudu, saved from drowning" who couldn't even reasonably expect any acclaim from others for his act.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudu_Saved_from_Drowning


Also: don't forget Bunny.

Last edited on Mon Apr 19th, 2010 07:32 pm by Be_You_

Abby1964
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Mana: 
I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you here.  You say that Kai had "nothing to lose" he also had "nothing to gain" by saving Stan and Xev/Zev countless times.  Also usually Stan and Zev got themselves into messes and then just took it for granted that Kai would save them again and again and again.  I'm sure that would even try the patience of the dead.  After all How did they repay Kai saving their bacon? By immediately throwing it back in the fire.  Kai was really the only one who displayed selflessness on a consistent basis.  Stan and Zev consistently did things that put themselves and others at risk to follow their own personal agendas. 

If you want to talk about saving Kai making someone a hero, then I would not apply it to Xev/Zev who for the most part had no fear, I would save that designation for Stan killing Vlad because Stan is basically scared of his own shadow.  Stan had to dig up some courage from somewhere out of that yellow streak.  So while Stan and Zev  performed a courageous act here and there it's not like they were consistantly doing it. 

doorknob
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I voted kai because quite simply hes my favorite. and I dont think it matters if some one is being selfless of not if you save some one for any reason even a bad one your still a hero. There are bad heros around.

jimbo007nwo
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Lyekka turns into a hero, but she had an almost symbiotic relationship with Stan. If there were no other humans though she may have eaten him to survive though.

Rustam
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Be_You_ wrote:
Robert Heinlein once described the ultimate hero as someone who does something dangerous and selfless for someone he doesn't even know; like the Frenchman in Jean Renoir's "Boudu, saved from drowning" who couldn't even reasonably expect any acclaim from others for his act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudu_Saved_from_Drowning

Yep, which is exactly why I chose Thodin. He did it for all the right reasons (trying to save the people of his universe) whereas Zev did it for love. Different thing entirely.


Kai is to obvious, c'mon. We all know he attempted to save his planet. But his actions thereafter and his "unwillingness" to give up his divine assassin training (excluding the thought "In the Dark Universe, maybe I will be light,") he remained a strangely changed creature who was still testing the waters of good vs evil.

Kaden
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Squish! Tiny lizard takes out the Gigashadow. I love his (her?) little triumphant purr at the end, and the little tufts of hair!  :confused:

javaracke
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Kai, Kai and Kai once again. The hero of my heart :) And still it is weird that the only reason to make Kai alive was to let him die.

Be_You_
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Rustam wrote: Be_You_ wrote:
Robert Heinlein once described the ultimate hero as someone who does something dangerous and selfless for someone he doesn't even know; like the Frenchman in Jean Renoir's "Boudu, saved from drowning" who couldn't even reasonably expect any acclaim from others for his act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudu_Saved_from_Drowning

Yep, which is exactly why I chose Thodin. He did it for all the right reasons (trying to save the people of his universe) whereas Zev did it for love. Different thing entirely.


Kai is to obvious, c'mon. We all know he attempted to save his planet. But his actions thereafter and his "unwillingness" to give up his divine assassin training (excluding the thought "In the Dark Universe, maybe I will be light,") he remained a strangely changed creature who was still testing the waters of good vs evil.

You make a strong case for Thodin, but I think your exclusion of Zev based on her heroism being motivated by love is incorrect. In fact, love is the only reason for heroism. Though the example I gave was motivated by Zev's specific love of Kai, in Mantrid, Zev repeatedly bade Stanley to destroy the planet with her on it simply to keep the insect from surviving to torment mankind. What purer form of heroism can there be than that motivated by the love of all mankind?

Thodin was a bit of an ego, and though we can definitely say he's a hero, I maintain that Zev - perhaps due to her painful life experiences - demonstrated the greatest potential for heroism.

In truth, every character in the show was capable of some degree of heroism at times and often the opposite trait too.


The Robert Heinlein reference I made was of a story he told where an unknown hobo died while jumping to save someone elses' young girl child who had become tangled in the mechanism of a calliope.

Last edited on Tue Apr 26th, 2011 07:26 pm by Be_You_

Cesare
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Be_You_ wrote:Thodin was a bit of an ego, and though we can definitely say he's a hero, I maintain that Zev - perhaps due to her painful life experiences - demonstrated the greatest potential for heroism.
I dunno... Most of Zev/Xev's heroic deeds and sacrifices had to do with the individuals close to her being threatened and she could behave like a downright selfish bitch.
True hero needs to be capable not only of a certain measure of self-denial and empathy, but also of good deal of pragmatism. Thinking in broader context, looking at the larger picture. In his/her heart of hearts, s/he has to be more or less a collectivist.
Zev/Xev seems rather incapable of that. She is a great person, has a lot of courage and empathy and all that - but in my book, she's no hero. (That doesn't make her a bad humanoid being. After all, heroes can be very dangerous, destructive people...)

Abby1964
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I still cannot see Thodin as a hero. If you take a very close look at his actions he had an agenda. He was out to make his mark. This is borne out by his attempt to make a dying speech (Thank you Kai for making sure he didn't last long enough for that)

If you are talking about having nothing to gain, then the only choice would be Kai. No matter what he does, no matter how hard he tries he can never truly 'gain' anything, but he is constantly 'saving' (Or attempting to save) others. Going up against Vlad is a lost cause but he does it anyway because he knows what Vlad is capable of. He does it to protect a world full of strangers he has never met; and most of those he has met, don't make much of a case for the world's continued existence.

His only 'selfish' act in 4000 years is the chess game he plays against Prince to get back his life.

And in the last episode he seals his place as the hero. After 6000 years being dead, he gets his life back, at this point he has everything to lose. He finally gets his life back, but instead of keeping himself alive he gives up his newly won life for a world full of strangers.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
Yes it is true that Thodin's dying soliloquy brings into focus his own ambition to be a great heroic figure. On the other hand, it became well established that the big bug's key could only be trasfered at the point of death or ecstasy: Thodin passed it to his lieutenant just before he went into battle with Kai right? Case closed. Thodin was a hero.

(In your comment about Thodin I think you tangentially refer to Lord Acton's oft-repeated maxim that "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." I'd say that is a good point. Thodin might have turned out to be a bad fellow for the Light Zone if he'd succeeded in taking out the Divine Assassin.)

Now as to Kai's heroic acts, remember in the first event of his death his planet was being destroyed. Did he have the capability to fly away in his little insect warship and evade his Divine Shadow's onslaught? Probably not. So what did he have to lose by his Kamikaze flight into the bridge - which, by the way, his one remaining confederate joined him in? Likewise, in the penultimate scene of the final episode when Kai flew into the opening in the side of the bad carrots' mother ship with the Higgs-Bosun collider in tow, did he absolutely know his fate was sealed? Did he know the opening was going to close up trapping him? Might Kai have actually craved death after so many thousands of years of suffering and becoming wakened to fully appreciate it? I say it is an enigma and it can be interpreted in more than one way... as is his behavior with regard to "The Game."

Remember in that episode of "selfishness" he actually offered up the lives of Xev and Stan to get what he wanted. Was he really so good he could know that Prince would make a mistake? ... or was he being quite flawed and decidedly not hero-like? I say: maybe.

Perhaps the ultimate heroism is the willingness to throw one's life away when there is nothing to gain and when the life thus sacrificed is eminently worth keeping. Maybe that is an ideal which doesn't exist and never will. When Zev/Xev on more than one occasion bade Stan to destroy the planet that she was on as a means to stymie any possible redux for the Divine Shadow, lizard gal may have been acting out of lingering self-loathing due to issues with respect to her youth and upbringing. Nonetheless her heroic acts are not easily dismissed.







Be_You_
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Mana: 
Somehow the above post was repeated here and now I'm doing what I can to delete it.

Last edited on Tue Jun 14th, 2011 06:10 am by Be_You_

Abby1964
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Mana: 
When watching The Game, this is more a reminder that Kai was human. Over the course of the series that is down played because he displays no human faults. His faults come from 'programming errors' and 'equipment failure'. It is this reminder that makes his willingness to die in Yo Way Yo more impactful.

The argument for Kai is based on consistency in his actions. One slip in 4000 years does not wipe out the track record. Just as random heroic acts does not truly establish someone as a hero.

As far as offering up Stan and Xev Kai had gone up against Prince in a contest of strategy and before and won (Battle). He also possessed the memory of HSD and all the Precessors, The Divine Order did not rise to power without incredible talent in planning, strategy, battle tactics and patience. Kai went into the Game knowing his opponent and his opponents weakness. Prince assumes Kai is an easy victory because of his lack of experience playing chess. Prince did not know Kai's strengths, he only saw what he thought was a weakness.


In all honesty Kai had every reason going into The Game to be totally confident of winning; he had knowledge way beyond what Prince had in the needed areas, He was familiar with the moves of the game and the power of the pieces, and it was similar to a game played on Brunnis 2.

Kai also had the ability to look at the board coldly and without emotion, while Prince gave in to his emotions. If you look at how the two 'Kings' reacted, you can see this. Prince's king was constantly talking trash and taunting Kai's pieces, while Kai's king remains fairly quiet during the game.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
Well Abby, I'm pretty sure we could go back and forth on this. Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree. I remain unconvinced as to why you'd describe Xev's acts of heroism as random, but not Kai's. I think they numerically match up - or even work out in Xev's favor - if you discount all the events where Kai was actually dead and presumably ambivalent or desireous of death.

If a person commits a single act of heroism and loses their life doing so, would that make them ineligible for hero status?

I think you might have made a stronger point if you had questioned my statement about Thodin. After I posted that, I remembered in Season 4 where Kai referred to some other means for transmitting the key besides the two which we saw in the various episodes. Perhaps Thodin actually  believed he was going to defeat the dead man with his invisibility bomb and transferred the key to his lieutenant as a means to solidify his heroic aura.


Abby1964
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Mana: 
I didn't question Thodin because Thodin was the glory hound, not the hero. Thodin had an agenda

I question Xev's acts because they are random and in many cases she, like Stanley causes the situation through self interest. To me that is not heroism, it's cleaning up your mess. I'm not saying she is a bad person I'm saying that she is taking personal responsibility, that is not heroism.

You keep saying that Kai is ambivalent etc which simply reinforces my point. Kai has no reason to pull anyone's butt out of the fire and yet he does again and again. He does not have any personal ulterior motive for doing what he does.

A true hero does not act for glory, to get the girl or any of the dozens of other reason's people want to be a 'hero'. A true hero does what they do with no thought to personal gain.

And in answer to your question "If a person commits a single act of heroism and loses their life doing so, would that make them ineligible for hero status?"


That depends on why they committed the 'act of heroism. If they do it with the thought of some gain then no, they are not a hero. If they were responsible for the situation that brought on their act of heroism then no they are not a hero. If it is truly a selfless act, they acted without thought to what it would gain them (Or their family), then yes they would be eligible for hero status.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
I hope I am not beating a dead horse here, but while I applaud your serious consideration of what it means to be a hero - a term which recently has been applied to the point of clownishness - there are some significant concepts surrounding heroism which remain to be explored.

The dictionary definition of hero is (in part) one who does something - often in some martial endeavor - with an admirable level of competence and/or courage. I think we agree that when a hero takes risky action for the benefit of others whom the hero does not even know when the hero has no thought of seeking reward or favor, that that represents the acme of heroism. Such a hero acts simply because of the sense within himself (herself) that "it just ain't right" to let events transpire without acting. Such a hero will with equal willingness act anonymously.


On the other hand, I think your position of disallowing hero-status unless motives are absolutely pure is extreme. Kai is just a character in a T.V. show - and our debate as to whether his being already dead makes his heroism more or less valid notwithstanding, I maintain that there are cases of heroism where some thought to future acclaim or reward - or conversely, the fear of being called a coward - can be a factor and such complexities do not provide an occasion for the such acts to be dismissed out of hand as un-heroic.


As a hypothetical case, consider a soldier who jumps out of his trench in the face of enemy fire in part because he thinks his own officers will shoot him if he freezes - or that otherwise he will face the opprobrium of his fellows - and then goes on to fight with effectiveness. Such a soldier might have a trace of thought in his mind of receiving a medal and being granted permission to marry the prettiest girl in town - or alternately of dying heroically and being taken into heaven for his heroic behavior despite previously having had led a checkered life. (I am not advocating such a belief system, but simply positing its existence.)


Take the character Thodin. Certainly we can observe that he thought quite highly of himself and that probably he had a great ambition to be the well-respected leader of all the universe, both acclaimed and rewarded for bringing humanity out from under the shadow of the insect overlord. But for the purpose of determining his being a hero,  the only question which must be answered is whether or not he truly believed he was going to die fighting Kai. (That premise is in fact debatable because of the suggestion during an episode in season four (
769?) that there were more ways to transfer the key besides the sense of imminent death or orgasmic satisfaction.) If Thodin did believe he was giving his life for the people of the universe in delaying Kai in his pursuit of the others, then he was certainly a hero - no matter what other thoughts he had in mind - because the putative benefit of posthumous acclaim cannot be said to balance out his heroic sacrifice in that case.

in Giga Shadow, when Zev bade Stan to destroy the Cluster along with herself just to prevent the bug from re-emerging, she had not played any part whatsoever in bringing the situation into being. Zev was a hero.

Abby1964
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Mana: 
The true hero is consistent. In other words random Heroic acts are not the definition of a hero. I can run into a burning building to save a child and I have committed a heroic act yes but I am not a hero because I am not consistent in doing so. The firefighter who does it day in and day out risking himself each time is the hero because what he does is beyond what an ordinary person will do.

That is the problem with the word hero. You said "applied to the point of clownishness." The truth is that the standards for what defines a hero have been lowered to the point of the mundane. A hero is supposed to represent an ideal beyond the average person, that is why they are heroes.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
Well, we agree that the term "hero" is overused, but not the specific definition. For instance, if you were to run into a burning building - even just once - to save someone else's child, I'd certainly consider you a hero.

As a matter of fact, I'd tend to rate you above a professional firefighter who is trained, equipped, and often highly paid to do that everyday...  though to be sure they spend most of their time hanging around the fire station eating, sleeping and playing cards until they retire after twenty years (around here) just after being accorded a needless promotion so they can get a bigger pension - this while budget cuts force children into larger public school class sizes and transit fares skyrocket. I think firefighters and police are highly overrated as heroes, though I don't want to diminish the truth of the heroism that takes place among their ranks on a regular basis.

Commercial fishermen have - according to labor statistics - a much higher chance of being killed and maimed on the job than cops or firemen. Day in and day out they go to sea no matter the conditions to bring tasty seafood to our tables. I'm not sure I'd call them heroes though. :)

Abby1964
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Mana: 
Firefighters and cops highly paid?? sorry I can't help but laugh at that one knowing firefighters and cops and what their payscale is. Most firefighters in the U.S. are actually volunteers. Paid fire fighters are mostly found in large metropolitan ares.

So these men and women for the most part risk their lives again and again for no pay or a small stipend to maintain their issued gear. Those are heroes in the true sense of the word. Just as cops are heroes in the true sense of the word because every day that they get up and put on their uniform and that badge they are putting their lives on the line for pay that is often right at the poverty limit or an iota above it.

That makes them the heroes because even with the awareness that "today could be the day" they still do it. They walk into situations daily that they know can turn deadly in a split second, but they do it. That is the difference. I may run into a burning and commit a heroic act on the spur of the moment but I am not making a conscious decision on a daily basis to risk my life to save someone from a burning building.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
You are quite right about the majority of firefighters in the U.S. being volunteers. I have known one myself: the fellow fought about three fires in so many years working at his department - hardly a day-in and day-out situation though having the potential, certainly, for providing an opportunity for heroics on occasion. Perhaps I should have made it explicitly clear that I wasn't referring to volunteers.

The San Francisco Firefighters on the other hand - as professional paid firefighters make on average thirty bucks an hour and many take home well in excess of $100,000 per year due to overtime pay. They retire at age 55 on 100% pay according to whatever rank + overtime pay they were making in the final months of their tenure.

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=7083

The only cops I can think of that I ever heard worked near the poverty line were those in New Orleans. Corruption has been endemic in that department for years.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/03/system_of_paid_private_details.html

I can only hope that most cops are like the ones in San Francisco and surrounding areas well paid and similarly somewhat free of corruption.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/06/24/BA831K1QRF.DTL

Again, I don't mean to disparage the heroism of police and firemen - especially volunteers. I simply believe that according to your own stated criterion - not benefitting from their acts, not benefiting from acclaim... getting the "pretty girl" etc., firefighters and cops are overrated as heroes.

Here's the statistics for deaths per 100k workers:

commercial fishermen: 112
firefighters: 17 ... down around where cops are and below taxi cab drivers... *well* below iron workers, and a whole host of other professions. See what I mean when I say firefighters are overrated as heroes?

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-15-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-2010-3


Last edited on Sun Jun 26th, 2011 11:23 pm by Be_You_

Abby1964
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Mana: 
Just the cost of Housing in San Francisco is 175% of the cost of housing in New Orleans. Saying someone is high paid in California when you take into account the cost of living is not proof of being well paid. $100K sounds like a lot to me yeah, but I live in Texas where I can buy a home for a third of what I would pay for a comparable house in California.

Sorry but I have seen what officers make and I spent 12 working for a police department and other than The chief of Police and the Captain all of them were in situations of needing double income. Either their wife worked or they were working security on the side and that was to make ends meet and maybe put $25 to $50 aside for savings.

Commercial fisherman-the majority work seasonally not year round. Most of them are simply following the family tradition. They grow up in the industry and simply continue on just like their father, grandfather etc.

There really is no conscious decision like with police officers or firemen. These are careers fields that you deliberately choose to go into with the expectation of risk. Death by accident is a far cry from going to work each day and having a reasonable expeectation in the back of your mind that you can die and it's not an accident it's because someone is deliberately setting out to kill you or you will be required to walk into a death trap to save someone else.

Sorry Death by misadventure, no matter how common, does not compare with facing the fact that on any given day you may required to go toe to toe with someone who is bent on killing you or you might be required to enter a collapsing building to save a life.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
I think you might be arguing that because cops and firefighters *think* they have the most extremely dangerous jobs that they are actually the most heroic of all. I guess that could be true at that. It certainly doesn't mean they deserve such plaudits nearly as much as commercial fishermen who - believe me - *know* they face great danger from someone who wants to kill them dead (mother nature) when they - say - take their boats out in the dead of winter with zero visibility and 20+ foot seas to pull up some crab pots.

Cops talk about how dangerous their jobs are... over crab salad sandwiches.

(Edit: And SF cops and SF firefighters *rarely* live in the city. The vast majority of them own homes in far cheaper outlying suburbs where housing costs are far more reasonable... and where they are far less available to come and be heroes during their scheduled off-hours to city residents in case of earthquake and other disturbances.)

Last edited on Mon Jun 27th, 2011 06:53 am by Be_You_

Abby1964
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Mana: 
Sorry I just don't see death by industrial accident on a par with deliberately stepping into deadly situations. Most accidents are caused by carelessness, neglect or other contributing factors. A true accident is very rare.

It still a far cry from walking up to a car in the middle of the night not knowing if that driver is going to hand you a license or a bullet. Equipment failure because of sliding on maintenance or thinking I'll get around to it after is a far cry from running into a building you know is unsafe due to structural damage.

And anywhere in the southern half of California outside of a metropolitan area or inside has a cost of living that most people living outside of the state could not afford on the salaries they earn.

Which brings me to your statement about cops living outside of SF. They live outside of SF Because they cannot afford to live IN SF.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
I want to make it clear that in this debate my position is not that firefighters and police or the heroism they may show in their work should be disrespected, but only that they are overrated as heroes in relation to other workers.
 
On the risk of job-related death, you would make a distinction between firefighters entering a burning building and steel workers entering their plants. This is an undeserved distinction, though I somewhat understand why it is made: firefighters (and cops) are seen as helping and protecting the weak and the endangered as opposed to meeting more mundane needs of food, shelter and transport that other more highly endangered professionals do. But even at that, I don't think it is correct to think globally in that regard because in most cases police and firefighters don't protect lives, but rather only property.

In all actuality, firefighting casualties *are* industrial casualties. There really is no reason to suggest that injured workers in another industry are more likely to be personally responsible for their accidents - such as by mentioning "deferred maintenance."

When two San Francisco firefighters recently died in a flare up, it was because they didn't follow standard department policy in venting hot gases. No civilians were at risk at the time.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-06-04/news/29619693_1_veteran-firefighter-house-blaze-command-post/2

As for the cops' risk of being "handed a bullet instead of a driver's license," I am tempted to stipulate that highway patrolmen who make daily traffic stops might face greater daily risk than taxi cab drivers and even fishermen - though I suspect that they are as likely to die in vehicle crashes as in shootings - but certainly not all cops have such duty. Many cops never have cause to unholster their firearms outside a firing range.

I do think I understand your caveats on the use of the term hero: you want to reserve the term for someone who deserves it to be written in their obituary or tombstone. I think such people are rare, though we tend to accord such respect when people die doing something heroic. Otherwise we speak of heroism in the fleeting sense; like "she was a hero when" or "he acted heroically".

So I will concede the point, but I think the bottom line remains that while some cops and firefighters are heroes, others not so much. It's just not that uniform.

... And I think that Xev and Bunny were heroes...

Last edited on Sat Jul 2nd, 2011 05:11 pm by Be_You_

Abby1964
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Mana: 
No I don't want it reserved for people's tombstones or obituaries.  Most true heroes don't die in an act of heroism because it is not the act that makes a hero.   A hero is what a person is at their core and that is the distinction. 

Someone who consciously faces death on a continual basis day in and day out is a hero does not matter if the die or not. 

As far as accidents look at the investigation statistics and see how many are truly accidents, meaning circumstances that could not be foreseen or controlled and you will find the overwhelming majority are traced to negligence, improper maintenance of equipment or plain carelessness.  In other words controllable or should have been foreseen.  That does not mean that the victim necessarily should have seen it coming, but someone somewhere should have and with proper action could have prevented it from happening.

Be_You_
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Mana: 
vvv see below vvv

Last edited on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 05:30 am by Be_You_

Be_You_
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Mana: 
vvv see below vvv

Last edited on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 05:31 am by Be_You_

Be_You_
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vvv see below vvv

Last edited on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 05:30 am by Be_You_

Be_You_
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Mana: 
I'm trying to understand your perspective and find common ground. Is it  to you just Kai and all firemen and cops who are heroes?

How about - say - a marine engineer who walks across a wooden board onto a rocking ferry each morning cognizant that a gust of wind or misplaced step might send him down to be impaled on some rotten pilings amid fridgid waters? What about the industrial maintenance mechanic whose trade regularly includes work on powerful machinery which can kill or maim him in an instant if his lock-out-tag-out precautions are subverted? ... or where a slip of a tool while working in a high voltage electrical panel could result in immediate death?

These (completely imaginary) people are representative of tradesmen who on a daily basis face death. I suppose without any big pension to keep someone's feet planted in a job where unsafe practices are the norm, one might cavalierly say its their own fault if they get injured.

Do you know, I don't think Kai faced death on a regular basis: he *was* dead. Kai only faced death twice in all the Lexx episodes - far less than Xev. 

Abby1964
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Mana: 
Kai was dead, but he died putting himself at risk to save others (Although the effort was in vain), it is who he was. He demonstrates this consistently throughout the series.   Being dead did not change his basic character  Once he got his memory back he acted completely out of character for a programmed tool of the Divine Order.

Firefighters, police officers, soldiers these are heroes because because they knowingly accept  risk to themselves to protect or save others.  It is that consistent willingness to sacrifice for others that makes a hero.

The ferryman does not get up and got to work expecting to have a freak gust of wind blow him overboard, the industrial mechanic does not go to work expecting to be maimed they expect and strive for just the opposite.  These tradesmen not only do not risk their own safety for others they make every effort to reduce risk to  themselves.  I'm not saying they don't face danger of course they do, but they also make every effort to avoid that danger.

If facing danger was all it took to be a hero then everyone walking the face of the Earth would qualify, because we all face danger everyday.

Last edited on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 06:06 am by Abby1964

Be_You_
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Mana: 
I repeat it is not my intention to disparage individuals by making this point, but it isn't correct to apply the term "hero" universally to members of military and paramilitary forces and exclude anyone else.

Surely you've heard of - or can at least imagine - members of some of the above-mentioned uniformed groups behaving badly? Crooked and bullying cops, soldiers frivolously contesting their deployments into war zones - or committing atrocious war crimes - and firemen getting caught stealing from homes or milking their disability system?

You previously posited that any ulterior motives for "being a hero" or even seeking out that status was in itself a bar to it. I think that is a bit overstated, but certainly you can Google up the terms "wanted to be a hero" and "firefighter" together to find many instances where firefighters themselves recount searching out this status. (Little wonder, of course, since everyone to some degree seeks the approval and love of others.)

Inner city doctors and public school teachers: candidates for hero status? Yes.

Abby1964
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Mana: 
Of course there are bad apples in any group (As you mention), those bad apples would not be heroes but they are the exception and not the rule.

As far as ulterior motive, what is the primary reason? If the primary reason they are doing it is for the attention then they aren't in it to help anyone else but further their own agenda (This is why I don't see Thodin as a hero yes he is doing the right thing but for the wrong reason)If they go into that field because they truly want to save others, then the term hero applies.

Inner city doctors and teachers yes they would be heroes for the plain simple fact that they are willingly walking into a deadly situation to help others. All public school teachers no, no more than all doctors. The select few who choose to work the inner city, yes.

Bilbo67
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Mana: 
Be_You_ wrote: Surely you've heard of - or can at least imagine - members of some of the above-mentioned uniformed groups behaving badly? Crooked and bullying cops, soldiers frivolously contesting their deployments into war zones - or committing atrocious war crimes - and firemen getting caught stealing from homes or milking their disability system?

Well stated.  Brings to mind Larry Niven: "No cause is so noble that it won't attract fugheads."

Ketana
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Mana: 
there were hero's on the Lexx? funny but I thought it was everyone for themselves on the bug ship...

CheshireKat
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Mana: 
I'm still sticking with Thodin. He's Da Man! :D

M1CHA3L
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Mana: 
As cool as Kai was and as powerful as Lexx was Squish was the only one bad enough to go beak to brain with the GiGa shadow.

"that's my baby"

Squish
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Mana: 
Yes!  Thank you M1CHA3L!!  Squish, Squish, 1000%!

LastBrunnenGstanding
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Mana: 
I went with Squish he had a yummy teasty snack of brain and found a noble death. Also he got some protoblood to Kai with the help of Zev. Then Kai toke over saving constantly tweedle dumb and Xev. And anyother person he came across on Fire and Water he was a hero. Yay! for Kai but Squish takes the cake.

TempestK
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Mana: 
Gotta go with Squish... I just loved that tiny lizard. Followed closely by Kai and then Captiain Stan!

Squish
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Mana: 
Yay!  Another Squish fan!

guideX
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Mana: 
I voted for Kai, even though Stan is the captain of The LEXX. Kai was really running the show just by explaining everything to Stan.

LastBrunnenGstanding
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Mana: 
Poor squish :( but I liked his sacrifice for the greater good. He was a cutie for a cluster lizard. But Kai was always saving zev/xev stand random people along the way. For an ex-assassin he was very noble hero.

sirenyard
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Mana: 
As much as I love Kai, I still had to vote for Tweedle. He just makes me laugh, especially when he's having at it with 790.... Bwah, I'm changing my mind as I type this, might go back and vote for Kai



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