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The protesters and what is going down right now
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LastBrunnenGstanding
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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 02:38 am

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Oakland looks like a war zone! I am watching the news and I am horrified by what they are showing! Oakland is an hour away from San Jose and is shocking. But I knew the peace was not going to last long. It's like civil war out in down town Oakland, I know the east coast is doing protesting and fighting for the same thing. Only I haven't heard if they clashed with the law. Like in Oakland they used tear gas like four times tonight:shock:  They have not told the number of injured or how many arrest were made. the point for what my understanding is that they are fighting for the injustice of losing their homes? I am a bit lost on what they are fighting for but it's for the common folks that I am sure about. It's just unreal how close to home it is this time I hope something is done soon. So there can be peace and tear gas free air. I hope it will end soon for the sake of the civilians who are not part of the movement can have their peace of mind once again.  THE MADNESS GOTS TO STOP I am praying that it will end soon.


:xsorry::wtflol::shock::u055a:



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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 01:16 pm

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LBGstanding, we are almost neighbors since I'm just north of you on the San Francisco peninsula. I too think it is a shame that it has come to this. Most of what is shown on the mainstream media does not do justice to these protests, as they are portrayed as an aimless drug-addled and smelly rabble.

Just as well-told lies often contain a grain of truth, the protest movement has naturally attracted some mentally ill people who have be singled out and held as spokepeople by those outside of- and unfriendly to- the movement, but one thing for sure is that rage is justified considering the intoxicated orgy of thieving and deception which has been perpetrated on the American people by bankers, corporatists and Wall Street traders - who to this day continue to exhibit a bizarre sense of self-worth and deserving.

Here's a link to an interesting radio program discussing the Occupy Wall Street protest and those like the one in Oakland it has inspired:

http://will.illinois.edu/mediamatters/show/october-16th-2011/

mp3:

http://audio01.will.illinois.edu/mediamatters111016.mp3
 

Last edited on Wed Oct 26th, 2011 01:26 pm by Be_You_

Abby1964
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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 01:56 pm

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I really don't want to get into politics but, I have to say that the protests are a day late and a dollar short. People should have been protesting the first time we heard "Too big to fail". Those few (in the grand scheme of things) companies should have been allowed to swan dive to a quick death.

When they failed; smaller healthier companies would have taken their place. We would have had a larger number of healthier companies shouldering up the burden of the economy instead of bloated giants that can no longer carry their weight.

The Corporate fat cats would not be in a position to continue to siphon off dollars through outrageous salaries and severance packages from companies that cannot afford it. Less operating capital would be needed to run the smaller companies resulting in better profit margins and no financial life support to conglomerates that just need to die already.



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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 03:08 pm

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Abby, while the phrase "too big to fail" certainly does in itself convey news of a dire and problematical situation, I would refer you to the take on it by independent Vermonter Senator Bernie Sanders who said "too big to exist" should have been the catch phrase long beforehand, when a seemingly endless parade of mergers and aquisitions was taking place all under the inert gaze of government oversight agencies supposedly in charge of ensuring that the putative goal of competition is served by economic players.

The late 1998 TARP bailout of American Insurance Group cost the U.S. Treasury nearly 200 billion dollars - much of which has still not been paid back - but if AIG had been allowed to fail, many experts predicted a worldwide depression would have ensued. One of my greatest complaints is that in the case of the banks which were bailed out, the U.S. taxpayers simply gave the money over to them without in any way taking control of the banks as was done in Denmark when a similar situation took place.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/aig-repays-more-than-2-bln-to-us-treasury-2011-08-18

As Laura Flanders says (in the radio piece for which I posted a link above), it would be best if the protesters focused on campaign finance as a unifying goal because that is the ultimate problem.

When recent a recent reform package was passed by congress and signed by President Obama, it had become so watered down due to the corrupting effect of campaign cash from the financial services sector, that it was in effect meaningless: The "derivatives" market which is a spooky business along the lines of every crapulent scheme ever devised by men intending to defraud others continues unfettered and unabated.

Last edited on Wed Oct 26th, 2011 03:11 pm by Be_You_

LastBrunnenGstanding
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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 06:20 pm

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Thank you both for clearing things up for me I know understan what is going on. No,I hope you guys will not get you feather's to ruffeld. That was not what I am aming for do not want a battle of politics :3. I agree the media loves twisting things around and only focusing on the bad apples. But it's just sad that it had to come to those extrems last night. I am going to lisen to you likes you posted up Be_you_.



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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 06:31 pm

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Abby1964 wrote: I really don't want to get into politics but, I have to say that the protests are a day late and a dollar short. People should have been protesting the first time we heard "Too big to fail". Those few (in the grand scheme of things) companies should have been allowed to swan dive to a quick death.

When they failed; smaller healthier companies would have taken their place. We would have had a larger number of healthier companies shouldering up the burden of the economy instead of bloated giants that can no longer carry their weight.

The Corporate fat cats would not be in a position to continue to siphon off dollars through outrageous salaries and severance packages from companies that cannot afford it. Less operating capital would be needed to run the smaller companies resulting in better profit margins and no financial life support to conglomerates that just need to die already.
This makes a ton of sense Abby to how this played a part that lead up to were we are at now......this is grime situation. At this rate things will not end any time soon so it will be a very rough ride till a change is made @.@ I am not to bright when it comes to politics. But fo the info you both shared with me now I understand things way better. Very sad things had gotten this bad and crippled the economy to this it's very sad.



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Abby1964
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 Posted: Thu Oct 27th, 2011 12:59 am

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Be_You To big to exist is a much better description. As far as the 'global collapse', I think that was more a case of listening to Chicken Little. It is these huge corporations that are killing the economy on a global scale. The existence of these conglomerates prevents the growth of smaller companies.

It was not an economic collapse that would have occurred, Not is not what anyone was afraid of. What they were afraid of what the collapse of the corporate political power base. Since most of these conglomerates are operating multi-nationally, that would would have mean a loss of power for the corporations on a global scale.

Politics is all smoke and mirrors, illusion and misdirection.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 27th, 2011 08:16 am

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Abby, we are in ready agreement with regard to large corporations tending to be inefficient or dangerous. Their most salient characteristic is their concentration of power and faculty for its abuse. such as by acting to corrupt governments and elected representatives. Nonetheless, I think the world economy was (and still is) at risk for unprecedented turmoil connected with their fates.

 Our economic system is so complicated and far removed from a simple system where we are all hunter-gatherers; or work in agrarian production or trades associated with it. We can't simply barter for our needs. The monetary system, based perhaps as much on imagination as on concrete reality, is what determines if the next factory, power plant, or water treatment plant will be built to serve the needs of a growing population. Despite the fact that my eyes start to glaze over when I try to consider the inner workings or it, we are stuck with that sort of smoke and mirrors complexity.

And while I think that in general it is a good thing when large corporations give way to smaller growing competitors, that on the other hand if - for instance - the U.S. government had not acted to bail out General Motors in 2008 (for which all the money has now been paid back with interest) then that sector of the U.S. economy would have simply ended up losing a vast number of jobs and the U.S. world market share in automotive production would have lost ground to countries like China where there is no compunction about government financing of large-scale enterprise.

Last edited on Thu Oct 27th, 2011 08:21 am by Be_You_

Abby1964
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 Posted: Thu Oct 27th, 2011 08:53 am

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Well I think when you start talking about the loss of jobs, we have to go back to NAFTA. Which was nothing more than a snow job on the public designed to benefit big business at the expense of the People.

NAFTA freed large companies to shift Lower tier jobs to foreign soil to increase their profit margin by hiring cheaper labor. Free Trade agreements do not benefit the 'wealthier' country. They are a method of wealth redistribution. NAFTA killed many smaller American factories that supported the American Middle class. What NAFTA didn't kill off are now being killed off by the Prison Industrial Complex as skilled labor is now being done by inmates. Everything that is wrong with our economy is the result of Legislation feeding corporate greed. While campaign reform will put a dent in it, it won't cure it.

The on;y thing that is going to put an end to our depressed economy is to kill the monster.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 27th, 2011 09:50 am

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Oh I couldn't agree with you more with respect to NAFTA - and not only did it have the effect you mention, but due to the U.S. subsidized ag exports flooding the Mexican market and causing poor Mexican farmers to be forced off their land, it is also in large measure responsible for the influx of undocumented immigrants taking many of the American jobs that remain.

(The U.S. Congress just ratified a net job-killing free-trade pact with South Korea with the support of many of the same old business-as-usual "blue" Democrats and corporatation-loving Republican types along with a surprising number of "outsiders" recently swept into office by the "Tea Party," so the damage continues, even under President Obama.)

I just don't think you can end up with a better system through economic shock treatment; rather the opposite result is more likely.

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

Last edited on Thu Oct 27th, 2011 09:53 am by Be_You_

Abby1964
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 Posted: Thu Oct 27th, 2011 11:08 am

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Economic Shock Treatment is exactly what is needed. The fat cats are comfortable while the average person is hanging on by a thread and everything the fat cats do is designed to increase their comfort while more average Americans feel the thread break.

Until the fat cats experience the reality that the rest of us live with nothing is going to change except to get worse. We have forgotten that when you want to be noticed by the fat cats, you stop putting money in their wallets. They are then left with the option of changing or ending up hanging on to a thread themselves.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 27th, 2011 01:02 pm

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Abby, I can appreciate your sentiment but yet I think there are a couple problems with it: for one, the fat cats are - to say the least - quite a bit further away from missing a meal than the average unemployed worker, and two, hungry people can sometimes be led to support ideologues who will ultimately not represent their best interests (like what happened in Nazi Germany during the 1930s).

Unlike the situation 80 years ago during the Great Depression, there is relatively very little capacity for resourcefulness and self-sufficiency in our society such as people growing their own vegetables or heading up to Yellowstone for a long camping trip. Almost everybody is dependent on the trucks delivering food to the supermarket and either money or the credit to buy it.

Maybe that situation is something we should address as a priority.

And perhaps you are right that a severe shock is the only thing which will bring about a change, but my preference is for incremental means such as direct action or boycotts of specific products.

Abby1964
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 Posted: Thu Oct 27th, 2011 02:14 pm

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I would love to see things gradually improve but unfortunately When a idea or belief system (Entitlement, Profit over the common good, Greed) become deep rooted in a society severe shock is all that will change things because society becomes accustomed to the status quo.

We are already at the bring on the Nazis point. It why you have groups out there right now protesting. And we are already at the point where the protests are becoming violent. We are dealing with an out of control economic wildfire. When a town is burning and the fire is jumping from building to building, it's not going to go out just by dumping water on it. You have to create a firebreak, and that is what we need now.

The problem is not lack of resources, it is lack of cooperation. Individuals in their own way are just as greedy as the corporations. It's normal. We grow up with the idea that we are only as good as our 'possessions' and our possessions have to be top of line. We are no longer keeping up with the Joneses but doing our level best to outdo the Joneses.

Until we as individuals stop worrying about how much we have and start worrying about the fact that pretty much all of us is just a couple of paychecks away from joining that unemployed beggar on the street, the corporations are going to continue to shaft us because we want to be just like them, just on a smaller scale.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 28th, 2011 12:26 pm

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Abby, I think the protesters exemplify the ideal you express - i.e., not worrying about how much they have but rather thinking about the bigger picture of society in general - and that the movement, far from being a "day late and a dollar short," is actually the vanguard of change.

Those folks aren't going to be the ones calling on the Nazis because they know all it will get them is a trunchion up against the side of their head.

Here's a URL showing the teargas attack which felled two-time Iraq vet Scott Olsen. After the intial unprovoked violence where he suffered an almost fatal blow to the head, you can see two teargas cannisters being lobbed into the group moving to give first aid.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEj_4fqDbnM

Last edited on Fri Oct 28th, 2011 12:29 pm by Be_You_

Abby1964
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 Posted: Fri Oct 28th, 2011 01:11 pm

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I saw that. And I also saw the second video of the police lobbing teargas at those who were attempting to help him.

And this is why I say a day late and a dollar short. Protesting anything needs to be done when you see the problem on the horizon, not after it has manifested.

We see the escalation into violence, how much longer will it take before the reaction becomes violence. With escalating force on both sides resulting in what we all fear, martial law. This has the potential to bring that down on our heads.

The violence will not be as easily 'overlooked' as riots in Watts. This is not 'welfare recipients' in the ghetto acting up. This is Middle class Americans. Therefore the reaction from the powers that be will not be to "sit back and let them burn down the neighborhood, Just make sure they don't start burning outside of the neighborhood."



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